RE: Re: sc rose: OT: Spike, a rebuttal from Jung prospective and Vampires

["sc rose" <scrose@xxxxxxxx>]

-----Original Message-----
From: danspector@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:danspector@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 3:51 PM
To: buffyloveswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: sc rose: OT: Spike, a rebuttal from
Jung prospective andVampires


Once more into the breach, etc.&

sc,

[WARNING: bad joke ahead!]

Hmm, I'm debating this with CA Moore and sc rose; I feel like I'm
battling The Initial-tive.

[told you]

[and anyway, some of this is more in reaction to Alnisa Allgood]

On prejudice: well, you don't mention which prejudiced society you were
exposed to, but I would guess that even there, the leaders, those who
had done the deepest studies of the object of hatred and even a good
part of masses knew what the enemy was, they just either manipulated
opinion for their own ends, gave into negative emotions, or kept silent
out of fear. Again, The Watchers' Council may be hidebound and
insensitive to individual's emotions, but they've millenia of knowledge
at hand, they know the habits of every demon sub-species and the history
of every magickal object out thereI'm still going to wager these guys
haven't made a monumental fundamental flub like not realizing vampires
are humans with souls and a parasite problem.

Suffice to say eastern Europe in the late cold war. Someone from that
country might be reading the list now and get offended if mentioned it by
name. They have had about 10 years or so get over being paranoid and
distrustful of everything and everyone not like them by this point. The
people of that country didn't even like themselves all that well at that
time a life time of beliefs had just been torn to pieces and quit frankly
the general popular was more than a little confused by it. but didn't know
any other way of doing things because of behavior conditioning they had
received as very small children. Wonderful things like all westerners are
decadent pigs and the like do as you are told and everyone will be happy etc
etc. That was not my point and never was perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

And let me remind you of the citations I gave that you cut out, that
everyone in the Buffyverse, including the vampires themselves, believes
that they are soul-less.

I did not and do not dispute that point actually and the cuts where done in
the name of keeping the message to a reasonable length. I will leave
everything intact in this reply as you make a reasonable argument for
leaving everything I thought I'd left enough that original thoughts could be
picked up on. Those who don't want to read it will just have skip over
material they have already read.

Jung psych is about behavior being based environmental factors and that
personality is set by clearly defined personality types and patterns. With
this in mind just how much of the human is left it seems that when a Joss
verse vampire is made in the turning many aspects of are carried over and
just which ones can be carried over.

And that demons can smell souls and their absence (I believe that's also
how Wolfram & Hart's vampire detectors work), and that The Judge could
find no trace of humanity in Angelus, and that the Orb of Thesulah
summons the spirit out of the ether, and did it on-camera.

People keep mentioning Harmony as an example to say that vampires are
still the same people they always were, just with a new factor in the
equation. Well, Harm was a "vacuous tramp", but she didn't hang with
the real nasty folks at school (Kyle and his gang, from "The Pack",
Sheila from "School Hard", or Rodney Munson from "Inca Mummy Girl") and
she died heroically, fighting the Mayor in "Graduation Day, Part 2".
Let's not forget that while the Mayor had told Snyder to withhold the
diplomas of any student who didn't attend graduation, so he could have
plenty to feed on, the Scoobs told the students exactly what was going
on, and every kid who went to graduation knew that they were risking
death and made a conscious, heroic choice to do so. They could have
run, like Anya did, but they didn'tthey were heroes no vamp could
ever hope to be. So let's respect Harmony Kendall, fallen hero, and
distinguish her from the amoral, cover-your-ass traitor her vampire self
is in "Disharmony". Yes, the vampire took on her incompetent aspect,
just like vamp Willow took on Willow's bisexual aspect. But that's not
Harmony we've seen the last two years, that's a thing wearing her face.

Also a small memorial to Larry Blaisedale, for whom we wish eternal
dreams of Xander-cuddles, and a nod to Jonathan Levinson, who actually
fought well, and a note that his current villainous treatment is untrue
to the character.

While vamp-Harmony may be incompetent and vamp-Willow bi, most vampires
are noticeably different from the humans whom they killed and now
inhabit. Yes, Darla was a hooker (well, not a "hooker", since that term
was coined 200 years after she died, but&), but Liam was a
non-confrontational layabout where Angelus was a focused master of
cruelty, William was a muzzy introvert where Spike is a "cool"
sociopath, and Drusilla was innocence personified and is now totally
debauched.

Angeluos also "made her insane first"

Citation correction, though: the episode where Darla senses and is
revolted by Angel's soul (would she be likely to do that if she was
carrying one herself?) is not "The Prodigal", but "Five by Five". And
the stated theme of "Five by Five", which Wesley expresses in his
argument with Cordelia in reference to Marquez, the gang member (but
which also applies to Angel and Faith as their stories unfold in the ep)
is:

"He may be a ruffian, but he's already got a souland therefore,
somewhere deep down inside him, an urge to do what's right."

Personality archetypes are not that a "soul" but the thinking and
environmental conditions drive behavior. Spike was a failed poet well when
you look into the things poet is one archetypes and it is driven by love and
passion.

An urge to do what's right. Something notably lacking in vampires.
I-don't-need-no-stinking-soul-Spike hasn't done anything that wasn't for
him, or Dru or Buffy or Dawn, nothing resembling altruism. And his saving
the world in "Becoming, Part 2" wasn't about selfish altruism, as in his
"Happy Meals on Legs" speech or any of the pleasures he found in itafter
all, he abandons Buffy and the battle and leaves the world in peril once he
has Dru back. And he doesn't even want her back out of lovehis affections
have already started going towards Buffy, which Dru calls him on in the
"Fool for Love" flashback and which is the reason she has never wanted to go
back to him (as opposed to Angelus, whom she rather touchingly misses)Spike
is just upset that Angelus has taken Dru away from him (all the Twerp's
insecurity issues coming back) so he betrays Angelus (and Dru, remember) to
pay him back and take her away physically. His lachrymose whining in
"Lovers Walk" is about her rejecting him, not any actual love. (His final
solution is to torture Dru back into his life, not actually connect with her
emotionally, or anything like that. And he doesn't actually do that,
eitherI don't think he even sees her again until "Crush"he instead settles
for Harmony, who's just "comfort food" for his ego.)

Unrelated concepts that should have been cut to save space

But while I argue that vampires are soulless, incapable of higher
emotions (such as True Love), and not being the humans whose images they
take, that doesn't mean they are void of all emotion. Yes, Spike and
Dru had affection and jealousy (but, Alnisa, The Judge said they reeked
of humanity, not human love). Spike can lust for, obsess over, adore,
be protective of, and take comfort in Buffy, he just can't love her.
Perhaps that even makes him a tragic figure. William wanted to be in
love (although he clearly had no emotional connection with Cecily, just
desire and a need for the higher emotions he was seeking), now he's
cursed to look for something he can never truly understand, much less
have.

Except that you are making a non existent distinction between "true love"
and love thank you for making my argument. We are talking about types and
degrees of "love" to me it's not a matter of weather he can love but weather
or not he does it well.

And I haven't always objected to Spike, it's just that his recast as the
male hero is repugnant and so I'm taking him down several deserved pegs. And
I really don't like him having things better than Angel, which, as we've
said, basically undercuts Angel's whole redemptive arc.

Also of course, this season is so much "Willow Bad, Spike Good" that in
objecting to the one, I'm getting rather irked at the other.

And, sc, Willow may be getting tempted into committing evil acts, but
she is not, at her core, evil. I don't think Joss or Marti or anyone,
down to the guy who sets up the craft service, would go that far.
Besides (vaguing things up to avoid spoilers) "All the Way" seems to
indicate that they're doing this arc as an allegory for addiction, which
is a disease, not a conscious choice.

I agree totally but it was a number of conscious choices, lets use your
addiction analogy some more. She started out with a cigarettes then she
decided that well those aren't so bad and decided try marijuana and alcohol.
Comes to the conclusion that those aren't really all that bad and try's some
stronger drugs now she's to the sucking on a crack pipe six hours a day and
drinking a fifth of vodka to sleep at this point. I didn't want to go into
spoiler land as some folks don't like them. Thing is she has become evil
from the behavior aspect. Drug addicts aren't evil but they do a great deal
of evil in feeding their habit. Willow is on a major down spiral because
Willow has become addicted to primal and darker magic's. We seem to be
getting lost semantics or perhaps I wasn't clear.

Alnisa, while humans have the capacity to be more evil than certain demons,
even those humans have a far higher moral potential than the demons, they
just squandered it. And while there are harmless, assimilated demons like
Merl, the truly good demons are half human, like Doyle or the Grusalugg, or
agents of the PTB, like Lorne. Whistler isn't actually good, he's just
devoted to Balance and so was on Buffy's side in certain events.

I'll agree with 90% of this thing is you are making a less than logical jump
you seem to be stating that all goodness comes from "the soul" has nothing
to do with personality or environment which isn't how either the real world
or the joss verse work.

sc, aside from my not particularly enjoying the "crap" term, don't get
all wonky about the movie's place in canon. It's canon-lite. Buffy was
a freshman when called, not a junior. There is more than one Watcher,
and Watchers are not eternally reincarnated. And Buffy can't sense
vampires because they cause menstrual cramping, thank God! Although
that certainly would have kept her off of Dead Boy and the Big Blah (my
name, this time), so not such a bad thing.

Sorry I was being bitchy forgive me, it wasn't called for. I could have left
it out and still made my point.

And vamps need more than an overcast to walk around in even diffuse
sunlight. That snowstorm in "Amends" was a) bad writing to try and fit
a Christmas theme and b) a specific intervention by the PTB on behalf of
Angel, like his return from Hell or his being able to break the
invitation barrier and save Kate in "Epiphany". It's been acknowledged
that the PTB have a particular interest in Angel, so they cut him slack
on occasion.

non the less it has been done in an episode for what ever reasons on more
than one occasion. Bargaining Spike in the shadows and Buffy being very
surprised to see him so early in the day and he explained that it was
overcast enough for him to get away with it. IE Just some your run of the
mill cloudy day won't do it. You have to have a true darkening of the sky.

And yes, vamps can change the rules through magic, like anyone else,
that's why it's magic. But that doesn't mean that there aren't rules
and that they didn't spring from a reason (soullessness).

And that's that. Look for a later, but shorter, missive on "All the
Way".

Dan

You have seen all some of spoilers for all the way so you understand why I
say Willow is becoming more evil by your goodness relates to how much of a
soul you have and part of hers is either just missing or at least on long
term lone. She's taken many small steps and gradually given an important
part of herself of great value to get very powerful magic enough said.

"Love is for souls, not for bodies"The Vision, Giant-Size Avengers #4

Once again the English language doesn't have suffice words for this. I'll
try however most other languages have words for differing degrees and types
of love. My cats love me and it's a not one sided. Do I love them the same
as say a mother a child the answer is unequivocal no. Has a commitment been
made for life on both parts yes my end that I protect and care for them they
give cuddly purr and nice warm fuzzy feelings and kill mice and leave them
on the bed for me (eeew) but that's showing they care cat style. That is one
of the things that love is about that hasn't been mentioned. The making and
keeping of commitments English has one word for all these things while most
other languages have up to half a dozen to express these differing emotional
states.

(Hey, if Xander can base 90% of his life on Marvel Comics, I can quote
them for Buffyverse topics. Besides, it's The Avengers, one of his
specific touchstones)

I'm a geek and like comics too used to laughed at for it. Don't you know
girls aren't supposed to like the X-men or something I guess.